Curse

Outerworld · Aug 31, 2011, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Having to treat a game like a job just to be competitive is neither fun nor rewarding.

gremlin · Aug 31, 2011, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Should have entitled this why pvp is for those who lack social skills.

ok in a nutshell why I do not pvp and am unlikely to play pvp in this kind of game.

It isn't about challenge because yes playing against other players can provide a far greater challenge than playing against ai opposition.

I am here for a rpg experience not a cage fight with magic added.
I enjoy roaming the hills following a storyline beating up on the bad guys however easy that may be.

Replace the ai bosses with human players and put them in charge of the mobs give them strict guidelines so they don't just all band together into one super mob and I would love it.

Don't mind beating other players I just want to role play while doing it.

KZaske · Aug 31, 2011, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

I'm playing both pve and pvp since I started GW and never had any problems with any of those. It's all fun for me as long as company is good. Sure I'll never take a "newbie" into my pvp team but I'm always up for giving advices and tips.

Only problem with pvp is that it's dead and needs moar players!!!

Advice and tips are useless unless you are willing to mentor a newbie while they are actually in a fight. So many "PvPers" think that advise and tips are as good as actual experence, wrong. They go hand in hand.
For my part, if you are not actually willing to teach, then don't. It will save those of us who have tried again and again to get into PvP a lot of heart ache.

noughtyous · Aug 31, 2011, 10:58 PM // 22:58

'Or why pve is for losers and pvp is for winners.'
Wow what a way to destroy an otherwise good post in the first sentence.

I find your views regarding AB very agreeable and personally I enjoy AB very much.
I would refer to myself as a PvX player, having periods where I almost exclusively do AB or periods where I follow the Zaishen Quests
That being said, GVG and HA have become a 'why even bother'. All I see are complaining threads regarding meta, strongbox farming and inactivity. Why would one want to go through a rather painfull learning curve against players who have seen hundreds of GvG battles, with no real hope of ever getting more then 'descent' at it. GW2 is hopefully around the block, and when it releases the PvP community will more or less default itself, I know the pro's will still be pro's, but at least there will be a descent amount of casual players against whom I can develop myself as a PvP player. And I will definately join both organised PvP and WvWvW from the very start.

Reverend Dr · Aug 31, 2011, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Let's all circlejerk that we hate the first line he wrote because clearly it wasn't done tongue-in-cheek to grab attention.

This is the biggest problem when trying to reach out to the populace at large. Individuals that have already decided, not just that they dislike pvp (if one dislikes pvp, or broccoli for that matter, who cares), but that all PvP players are "X" and won't shut up about it. In trying to reach out any thread becomes infested with these individuals that won't shut up, flip out over the smallest things, and just generally track mud everywhere. When, since they don't really have a reason to post in a PvP thread, will do so anyway and with great frequency. Without heavy moderation any PvP thread here will quickly be overwhelmed. What does that say about these individuals?

I'm going to let you all in on a big 'secret' about most of the PvP community. We compartmentalize. On forums, particularly the QQ forum, we tend to lash out and act like asshats because its the internet and its just words. On vent, or in matches, or anything with more personal communication this isn't the case. This isn't to say there aren't individuals that won't flip out on vent, but they quickly start having trouble finding anyone that wants to play with them (usually they end up in HA ID1 and become the 'elitist jerks' that many seem to stereotype the entire PvP community as).

*lemming* · Aug 31, 2011, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Contrary to the header I'm not really interested in firing up a big pve-pvp quarrel that leads nowhere.

You knew exactly what was going to happen when you chose the tone of your post.

With that being said, Reverend Dr is right as usual.

Gli · Aug 31, 2011, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

When, since they don't really have a reason to post in a PvP thread, will do so anyway and with great frequency.

If only existing PvPers can take part in a thread about reasons to go and start playing PvP, that would be preaching to the choir, Reverend.

Reverend Dr · Aug 31, 2011, 11:20 PM // 23:20

I'm talking about that particular subgroup of individuals, not the PvE community at large.

shodannet · Aug 31, 2011, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Or why pve is for losers and pvp is for winners.

Great start!

Any wonder why people prefer to pve/solo...

mrmango · Aug 31, 2011, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zandock

Starting your argument by calling your audience losers is a good way to turn them away quickly.

That's a dumb excuse for not wanting to play PVP.

I am too lazy to organize a group and I don't want to lose my PVE guild to play some fun PVP. What do?

Flameseeker · Sep 01, 2011, 12:23 AM // 00:23

To me PvE >>> PvP mostly for one reason:
I can solo most of the game without dealing with brainless people or elitists that say "PvE is for losers".
Don't get me wrong i do miss the time when people actually played together. What i don't miss was the players that never learned with their mistakes and made hours of effort just go to waste solely due to stupidity.

PvE is also more rewarding, so much more that at least a few years back it was possible to just buy your PvP titles (it was quite common to buy fame).
The rules here at the forum that forbid the continuance of such service just shows how much your "PvP is for winners" is corrupt, and i don't think i need to mention all the match making, synching or even in the problems that eventually led to the removal of HB (/roll and RR).

Don't get me started on coordination. PvP sure needs a lot of concentration and coordination between your team, but so does some of the SCs (I don't SC but I guess not everyone can do 18min in DoA).

I do think that in the current stage organized PvP can be quite challenging, when not ruled by brainless gimmicks, and i do like from time to time to watch a few matches.

So, since probably noone will read my whole reply anyway, just let me finish by saying that not all of us PvE'rs are a bunch of retards.
Most of us are playing for a long time and know every nook and cranny of the games, which with the powercreeping allows us to just breeze through the poorly designed AI without much effort. Just put some WoC kind of mobs in the areas (carefully thought so we don't get the problems like post WoC Cho's), and we'll get back our challenging PvE that all of us are missing.

bhavv · Sep 01, 2011, 12:27 AM // 00:27

I PVPed pretty hardcore for 2 years.

Today I only play PVP and advise all new players to avoid HA and GVG like the plague, if only to avoid the 'dipshits' playing it. (I took that word from the OP directed at PVEers, so dont feel offended).

Reverend Dr · Sep 01, 2011, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

I am too lazy to organize a group and I don't want to lose my PVE guild to play some fun PVP. What do?

This is a large problem. People have tried to post IGNs, but that isn't going to work; most everyone already has their friends list maxed out. Unfortunately there are no custom channels or anything in-game (hey anet, WoW has this) that could be populated by PvP players looking for pug groups. Standing in outpost advertising for PvP groups is simply a waste. Other than having people on your friends list, being in a PvP guild/alliance, there is no in-game way to organize. We've been fighting this for years.

There have been a few attempts at an irc channel, but it is currently deserted and has been so for a long time. People don't want to use anything outside of the game to organize.

The best solutions are in Anet's court, so that means it won't happen. Creation of world wide chat channels would help facilitate a lot of things (party formation for any area of the game, trade, running and services), but would allow for channels of PvP questions and answers and PuG formation. A band-aid solution would be to greatly increase the friends list (also add a custom 'handle' tag so you can see that its 'Jim' rather than the character Xol Leg O Lass Lox).

I wouldn't oppose a return to the IRC channel. Though I hardly see why it would succeed now when it had failed at least twice before.

If guru itself started offering a chat channel, that would generally be more 'accessible' than irc and would stand a better chance.

Unfortunately I honestly have no clue what we as players can do.

EDIT: I honestly don't know how to respond to most of the posts in this thread. By far the majority are not in any way constructive. Most of them contain "facts" that are just wrong stated by someone that simply does not have enough knowledge to make a credible assertion.

Sure I could quote and respond, but what good would that do? There would be no actual discussion, just words flaming at each other. The moment one stops the next would repost the exact same thing. Suddenly we have a pedantic five page derail.

Lanier · Sep 01, 2011, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Iv got a few points (most of which have already been pointed out in this thread).

1. I'm not going to generalize and say that all PvPers are alike. I am going to say that the way you started your post is a big turn-off for PvEers reading this thread. If you want to get your point accross, it is not a smart idea to insult your target audience. That said, I went ahead and read on anyway.

2.

Quote:

There is no such thing as "playing for fun", winning is fun.

Do people seriously think that what they think is fun is the same for everyone? Im going to assume you're just trolling with this statement.

3.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outerworld

Having to treat a game like a job just to be competitive is neither fun nor rewarding.

Quoting this for emphasis. I don't know about you but I do have a life outside of guild wars, and I'm not willing to give up various clubs and activities that I'm doing, nor am I going to sacrefice time normally spent on school-work to become a competitive PvP player. I feel as though time constraints are one of the top reasons why more PvEers don't PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

On forums, particularly the QQ forum, we tend to lash out and act like asshats because its the internet and its just words.

err, that doesn't change the fact that acting like an asshole on forums is a turn-off to people considering PvP. Maybe the community that does this (and I'm not saying that everyone, or even the majority of PvPers do) should stop? Just an idea that I'm throwing out there...

Anyway, I do agree with much of what is said about AB. That is one of the few PvP formats that I find very fun (though I don't take it too seriously).

In conclusion, if your goal is to get more people to PvP rather than PvE (as your title would indicate), I think you need to rethink your attitude and how you go about achieving your goal.

ruk1a · Sep 01, 2011, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Let me add by saying anyone on this forum is most likely a pve player and doesn't care about pvp (and I agree the OP was ignorant) the outcome of this thread was quite obvious. It should have been posted on TQ or some other forum. You are posting on a pve forum about pvp, which imo was your intention (to get pve'ers to play pvp) but when you start a thread by calling them failures it isn't a very good start, just saying lol. Although I agree with your points, you do not represent them in a respectable manner therefore not many people will take your comments seriously.

Beliarchia Targon · Sep 01, 2011, 12:53 AM // 00:53

AB sounds like it might be good fun.

However:

"You must enter a guild hall that's allied with either faction. You must form a party of 4 level 20 characters to enter."

Massive barrier to entry for any casual PvE player wanting to dip their toes into PvP. Jade Quarry, Fort Aspenwood and Random Arenas seem to be the only realistic options for such players.

Random arenas are a cesspool of rage (pretty much guaranteed by the "win x games in a row" reward structure), so that just leaves Jade Quarry and Fort Aspenwood.

I've had quite a bit of fun in both, seems like that's what you should recommend to novices wanting to try out PvP.

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 01, 2011, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocolate_Prayers

Good post, well written.

Not sure of your views on this, but FA can also be a mediocre stepping stone into "PvP". Few people might disagree on this though.

Thanks. I would agree with that. But I kinda feel AB is the big brother in this comparison so as long as you can play AB that should be your preferred choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malibu Illusion

GW2 is coming out. PvE titles are easier to max, and most HoM rewards are acquired through PvE activities.

PvP has little draw for players right now who are farming GW2 points.

Part of my point was that farming points and titles is a poor substitute for having genuine fun. The type of fun to be had in pvp with friends. You know where fun in itself is the actual reward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haviz

Back on topic, from my own experience, I have agree that AB remains as the only decent stepping stone to more serious pvp like GvG. It's not only mobfest/cappingfest or new TA-style like many people think. Surely, objectives are clear and many people will just stick to one simple way of playing it like solocapping but if you play it enough you will discover that AB might teach you a lot of tactics knowledge like when and how to split when you face much better teams than your own or play on disadventageous map with, how you called them, 'dipshit' as your allies.

You got it. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dudemonkey

You are correct in saying this. It was very counter-productive. I'm not sure why you'd spend the time to create a post that tries to explain the value of trying PvP but do so in such a way. I've been getting bored of PvE lately and was looking for new challenges, and I'm going to steer clear of PvP for fear of running across people who think the way this post comes off sounding.

I'm not saying this to be a jerk. I took the time to read this thread because I'm honestly looking for something new to take on in GW. But you admit that a sense of elitism is one of the main objections to PvP and then you write a post that's saturated with it, and you even admit that you know you're going to do that. You may want to rethink your approach or find someone with a softer touch to help make your pitch.

I'm glad that you are getting bored with pve. It is only natural. I hope you will make it into pvp. I used a slightly harsh style because I don't want to sugar-coat it too much. Getting into proper pvp is a long and difficult process, and in all honesty many are lost along the way. The reward, though, is pretty sweet. The part about elitism was there to admit it exists in order to not sound like a bigot, but also that you don't want to pvp with the elitists. The good pvp players are less elitist than you might think. Try to find friends at your own level and do the transition as a group. Having a bit of self-irony and ability to look at your own mistakes is vital to success. I hope you make an effort at getting more into pvp. Start with AB and a couple of friends, you won't regret it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gamewench

I do thank you for offering your viewpoint but all in all it's just not for me at this block of time.
*curtsey*

Fair enough. It does take time and effort and can at times be painful. Maybe at the next crossroads you may want to give it a try.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zandock

Starting your argument by calling your audience losers is a good way to turn them away quickly.

I gathered as much. But it is also a good way to spike interest. And if I'm lucky some people will get the basic idea I'm trying to relay and maybe give it a serious effort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rezz Anna Nicole

Only problem with pvp is that it's dead and needs moar players!!!

Please stop saying it's dead. It's such a stupid and old cliche, and it puts people off trying to pvp. Why would they want to try pvp when all they hear about it is how bad it is. PvP is by no means dead, and especially not the formats I've suggested here. You can get AB games most part of the day and the matches are interesting. Same goes for GvG. In general more players are needed and I'm trying to make a case for why it's still possible for beginners or medium-skilled players to find lots of fun in pvp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dewshine Wildclaw

I actually like AB'ing now and then, but in a casual manner, reason I like AB is possibly because it is possible to play casually unlike other pvp. And I have tried GvG now, perhaps not as bad as I thought... but it is just not something I will never love.

I don't know what you mean by playing casually. Often it's a poor excuse for playing badly and losing. If you start to look at ways to improve your play in AB it might be more fun and rewarding. Not just "might", it WILL. Why will you never love GvG? If you have a chance to GvG, go for it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheRaven

I'm not a bad player. I can put together a decent bar and run it but I have my limits. I'm terrible at kiting, weapon switches and that puts me at a disadvantage.

Today, i would not be accepted on an HA team unless i left my guild and joined up with a PvP oriented guild that takes in newbies. I love my guild and I'm not willing to do that. That pretty much leaves RA and that's filled with 10 year olds that like to rage if you aren't perfect. I'll do 1 or 2 matches before getting bored and head back to PvE.

Admitting that you are bad at kiting, weapon swaps and such is a FANTASTIC start. I mean that, seriously. As soon as you admit to a problem you can start to fix it. In order to get good at pvp you need to improve your kiting and your weapon swaps. It will seem like a big hurdle at first, but once you get the hang of it you're gonna regret you didn't do it sooner. And it's not even that hard. Put weapon swaps on your mouse buttons if you have them, start moving by click to move and you've already achieved things even top gvg players can't do.

On your problem of entering pvp groups. Yeah, stay away from RA. But could you persuade your pve guild to try pvp? Start with an AB group, focus on the tactical aspects, don't go 4v4 some strong team with a monk etc. If they consistently refuse to try pvp you should consider leaving them. PvP will give you more fun than any pve guild can ever hope to do. I do, of course, understand the desire to stay with your friends. Good luck anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

PvP in this game requires too much planning, and the modes that don't, they suck. Games are casual light entertainment to me, and I don't mean to spend the time I spend on them planning. Let ANet make a decent casual PvP mode and I'll give it a shot.

Try AB, it gives you a good experience while still being easy to set up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I'm going with this. Also the OP wants this to be about why one should PvP instead of PvP vs PvE, but then begins to discuss PvE.

People need to wake up from their comfort zone. There is a largely undiscovered world out there for most players - it's called PvP!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

This kind of d-baggery, which runs rampant in the PvP world, is the very reason why I stepped away from PvP.

You are now making one of the excuses I mentioned. Try to look past the comments that people make in heated pvp. Discover the challenge and the parts that make it fun. Team up with FRIENDS not d-bags and stop taking yourself so seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

So why should I PvP? Honestly, I shouldn't. If I can't play without someone telling me how wrong I am and not give me a reason WHY I'm wrong in the first place, then GO RED ENGINE, I wont PvP. I'm not going to put up with people who expect you to do what they want.

People need to stop associating RA with pvp. RA is a filthpool of terrible players, title-grinders and quite frankly a lot of pve'ers too. Try setting up pvp like I explained with your friends and learn form each other. Identify the mistakes you make and discuss ways to correct them. It's fun, interesting and pretty quickly you realise that the RA name callers are the bad players. Attitude is everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby Sox

If I'm not having fun, why am I bothering to play the game?

Exactly. But why are you all comparing the PvP I try to promote with RA or HA intl-1? Try the method I mentioned and I can guarantee you will have fun. Stay away from places like RA, there is nothing to be found of value there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Should have entitled this why pvp is for those who lack social skills.

Quite the contrary my friend. In order to succeed in pvp having a minimum of social skills is fundamental. Who would want to play with a person that goes on a rage-spree every night? Succeeding in pvp requires teamwork and ability to adjust to your team. No social skills needed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KZaske

For my part, if you are not actually willing to teach, then don't. It will save those of us who have tried again and again to get into PvP a lot of heart ache.

In an ideal world pvp'ers would mentor each and every prospect player, but pvp'ers first and foremost want to play with players at their own level to improve individually and as a team. GW PvP is so rich that there is basically no ceiling to how good you can get. What you need to do is stop waiting for someone to save you from pve and try to make the transition yourself. Start with AB, find a few friends, get on vent together and take it from there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by noughtyous

I find your views regarding AB very agreeable and personally I enjoy AB very much.

GW2 is hopefully around the block, and when it releases the PvP community will more or less default itself, I know the pro's will still be pro's, but at least there will be a descent amount of casual players against whom I can develop myself as a PvP player. And I will definately join both organised PvP and WvWvW from the very start.

I'm glad you enjoy AB! But why wait for GW2? It's been "around the block" for 3 years now. If you can find 7 other friends get into gvg already! If AB is enough at the moment that's fine, though. It has a lot of room for improving tactically and microwise, not to mention ability to function as a team by using vent and getting to know each others strengths and weaknesses. Keep at it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Let's all circlejerk that we hate the first line he wrote because clearly it wasn't done tongue-in-cheek to grab attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

With that being said, Reverend Dr is right as usual.

As usual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrmango

I am too lazy to organize a group and I don't want to lose my PVE guild to play some fun PVP. What do?

Get off your bum and talk them into trying pvp! Or make friends outside the guild and form teams for AB, HA or guest for GvGs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

PvE is also more rewarding

What kind of a reward are titles and shiny items? PvP offers MORE "immaterial" rewards. It is hard to explain with words, it is something you would rather have to experience. It's a thrill, a process, an experience!

ErrantVenture · Sep 01, 2011, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Let's all circlejerk that we hate the first line he wrote because clearly it wasn't done tongue-in-cheek to grab attention.

This is the biggest problem when trying to reach out to the populace at large. Individuals that have already decided, not just that they dislike pvp (if one dislikes pvp, or broccoli for that matter, who cares), but that all PvP players are "X" and won't shut up about it. In trying to reach out any thread becomes infested with these individuals that won't shut up, flip out over the smallest things, and just generally track mud everywhere. When, since they don't really have a reason to post in a PvP thread, will do so anyway and with great frequency. Without heavy moderation any PvP thread here will quickly be overwhelmed. What does that say about these individuals?

I'm going to let you all in on a big 'secret' about most of the PvP community. We compartmentalize. On forums, particularly the QQ forum, we tend to lash out and act like asshats because its the internet and its just words. On vent, or in matches, or anything with more personal communication this isn't the case. This isn't to say there aren't individuals that won't flip out on vent, but they quickly start having trouble finding anyone that wants to play with them (usually they end up in HA ID1 and become the 'elitist jerks' that many seem to stereotype the entire PvP community as).

Very, very well put. One of the few posts in this thread that accurately assesses the PvP community and doesn't simply rage at the first line of the post in order to get attention.

To adress another point: Most people seem to think that it requires a massive time investment to be competitive in PvP. Most top GvGers don't play more than an hour or two a day (mainly to play the AT for their time zone). Many play much more than that and many play even less.

On the whole though, getting 50/50 GWAMM requires a MUCH larger time investment than becoming a competitive player does.

Gli · Sep 01, 2011, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

Try AB, it gives you a good experience while still being easy to set up.

Finding 3 people to hook up with and then probably spending time on builds? That's way beyond what I'm up for.

Zoning into an outpost and pressing an 'Enter Battle' button is where I draw the line. Heck, back when I used to do RA/FA/JQ, seeing a countdown timer that started too high for my tastes was sometimes enough to have me zone out and go do something that didn't waste my time like that.

Godess Charmaine · Sep 01, 2011, 01:39 AM // 01:39

As a pve player, I really take no offence at his opening lines, we say the same about pvp players so tit for tat.

On the subject i have pvped in Jq and found that alot of fun, however the spoiler in all pvp is the bots. The elete jerks losers that run bot programs are the only reason pve players avoid pvp areas, and since dhrumm stomped on alot of these we do look at getting into pvp.
I have ventured into the Ra areas and would love to get a look at the HoH and on a few occasions and have found alot of pvp players even the elite guys will take a noob and help set your builds up and guide you along,this dosent happen much but it has happened.note yes I am the one that advertise NOOB here want to have a go at this.

If you really want more pve players to play pvp its simple, HELP , help them understand the builds and tactics used in the pvp arenas while you all sit in the staging areas waiting for the Rxxxx . we sit there going hey over here and Understand most of us can play hm dungeons sitting with one hand behind our backs, a little patience and you would probably find more pve players joining in and saving your decaying pvp.

anyways i doubt the elite pvp players will lower themselves as to inject new blood into there side of the game,but on a funny note us pve players seam to not care as much if u are a noob or gwamm, we will take you on any of our adventures and help you out just for the fun of it.

cheers Phab